24 Feb
2017
24 Feb
'17
6:54 p.m.
Hello Marco, I'm sure your thinking like this: look at it from the customer's point of view. They will view the s/w as a means to a enabling them to get their product to the consumer more cheaply or quickly or to allow them to reach more consumers. >From that viewpoint here's a few points to consider: - is Xquery easy to learn and use? - is it cheap? - is it secure? - is it faster? - does it scale? - how difficult is it to port what we have to using Xquery? - is it easy to maintain? As Dirk says below you also should point out the XML database products exist and are relatively mature with good support. Business people are risk-averse when it comes to tools required to build their product (unless the new tool offers such a compelling advantage that the risk is worth taking). It may be worth demonstrating that a novice user was able to get some Xquery example up and running in a short time. Or, showing some demo that is a mock-up of some component of their system and describe how long it took to put together (perhaps compare with a similar approach with another s/w). hth adil On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 07:55:25PM +0330, Dirk Kirsten wrote: > Hello Marco, > > I think Max is spot on, that the main objection of business people is > that XQuery is not exactly mainstream stuff. Nobody will be questioned > if you buy Oracle and your project in the end fails - Hey, you bought > the established market leader, what could go wrong? But you use a > relatively unknown, open source database (BaseX comes to mind...) and > the project fails - Hey, everyone will criticize this decision, for sure. > > However, to at least decrease the fears it might be worth mentioning the > standardization efforts and open source software involved: > > - XQuery, XPath, etc.pp. are all W3C standards > > - There are several XQuery implementations (BaseX, exist-db, MarkLogic), > so even in the case your platform in the end might not be maintained > anymore you might be able to change to another implementation > > - Functional languages are quite "in" at the moment (look at the success > of Haskell, Clojure, Scala, Erlang, ...). With XQuery being also a > functional language it is quite easier for those developers also to > grasp XQuery. So you should have an increasing number of at least > potential XQuery developers > > - Using BaseX (or exist-db) as your XQuery processor you use open source > software, which has several business benefits (e.g. decreased risk of > vendor lock in) > > - Using BaseX (or exist-db) you can get get commercial supports from the > companies behind these open source tools. For some reason, business > people love to buy commercial support... > > > I hope you can convince them - Wish you all the best > > Dirk > > > On 02/24/2017 06:06 PM, Marco Lettere wrote: > > Hi guys, > > thank you all so much for the great feedback. > > This one in particular feels like a crucial point and it's why I'm > > currently collecting all possible feedback also from students, stagers > > and other technicians that are somehow representative of entry-level > > to basic staff. > > Nice to see that people with fresh minds are extremely positive about > > the simplicity and the productivity of XQuery even if confronted with > > non XML specific use cases! > > Marco. > > > > On 24/02/2017 15:25, Adil Hasan wrote: > >> Hello Max, > >> > >> I think business decisions follow that path to avoid ending up in > >> a niche area where it would be terribly difficult to employ a > >> replacement once a/the developer has left. > >> Perhaps also pointing out that there are standards and perhaps > >> that it's not too difficult to learn would help to allay fears? > >> > >> hth > >> adil > >> > >> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 03:06:59PM +0100, Maximilian Gärber wrote: > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> I really like this thread! Keep the arguments coming! ;-) > >>> > >>> I am not saying that XQuery is just another query language. But if > >>> somebody (who has never heard anything about XQuery) is asking about > >>> your technological choice then telling them that XQuery is so special > >>> and unique is counter-productive. > >>> > >>> Because business decisions are always the same when it comes to > >>> technology: they want this warm and fuzzy feeling that you are running > >>> on mainstream stuff. > >>> > >>> > >>> Br, > >>> Max > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 2017-02-24 12:56 GMT+01:00 Hans-Juergen Rennau <hrennau@yahoo.de>: > >>>> To put it mildly, I disagree. I think the greatest mistake one can > >>>> make is > >>>> call XQuery a query language. I prefer to say that it is an > >>>> information > >>>> language. If this appears to be an incomprehensible statement, this > >>>> reflects > >>>> the novelty of the concept of an "information language". A book > >>>> should be > >>>> written about it. Which points to my ... > >>>> > >>>> second disagreement, which concerns your statement that there is > >>>> nothing > >>>> special about XQuery. I think XQuery is unique, as it is (or am I > >>>> wrong?) > >>>> the first and only general-purpose programming language which is a > >>>> pure > >>>> expression language built upon the ground of a value model centered > >>>> in the > >>>> concept of resources composed of globally addressable, interrelated > >>>> information (i.e. nodes). > >>>> > >>>> With kind regards, > >>>> Hans-Jürgen > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Maximilian Gärber <mgaerber@arcor.de> schrieb am 21:36 Donnerstag, > >>>> 23.Februar 2017: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi Marco, > >>>> > >>>> from my experience, the best way to handle these types of arguments is > >>>> to make clear that there is nothing 'special' about XQuery. It is a > >>>> query language. > >>>> > >>>> If you have to compare BaseX to something that most Java developers > >>>> will know, I'd use Hibernate and HQL, a library and DSL that is all > >>>> about querying data(bases). > >>>> > >>>> For C# developers, LINQ would probably ring a bell. > >>>> > >>>> Of course there is a lot more to it, and when it comes to web > >>>> applications, you can use it in almost every layer (templating, > >>>> routing, storage, etc). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Max > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> 2017-02-22 13:43 GMT+01:00 Marco Lettere <m.lettere@gmail.com>: > >>>>> Hi to everyone, > >>>>> > >>>>> probably this is not the right place for such a discussion but the > >>>>> BaseX > >>>>> communitiy is the one I'm better introduced to and the one I trust > >>>>> the > >>>>> most. > >>>>> So I hope that this somewhat unusual excursus will anyway be of > >>>>> interest > >>>>> to > >>>>> some of you. > >>>>> > >>>>> As for myself I fell in love with XQuery and its power in terms of > >>>>> data > >>>>> manipulation many years ago. I wouldn't change it with anything > >>>>> else and > >>>>> BTW > >>>>> we're using it (thanks to the incredible BaseX runtime) much beyond > >>>>> data-processing being it the backbone of all our micro-service > >>>>> oriented > >>>>> architectures. > >>>>> > >>>>> Now, to the point, in the near future I probably will be called to > >>>>> face a > >>>>> somewhat skeptical customer who will argue about the technological > >>>>> choice > >>>>> of > >>>>> XQuery. > >>>>> > >>>>> My point will be to make a comparison with the technologies they're > >>>>> currently using and I would like to demonstrate that for a rather > >>>>> XML- > >>>>> (and > >>>>> in general data-) intensive workflow XQuery is perfectly suitable and > >>>>> probably better than many other alternatives. > >>>>> > >>>>> I would tend to exclude XSLT because it would face similar > >>>>> opposition. I > >>>>> would also exclude languages at a lower level of abstraction like > >>>>> Java, > >>>>> Python, Javascript, C/C++ and so on for obvious architectural > >>>>> reasons. > >>>>> > >>>>> But then only templating languages/engines come to my mind. Those > >>>>> would > >>>>> still be probably novel technologies to learn and wouldn't offer the > >>>>> structural, syntactic and semantic power of XQuery anyway. > >>>>> > >>>>> So I ask you kindly, in order to complete my preparation on these > >>>>> matters, > >>>>> is there anyone that has experience with other tools or languages > >>>>> that can > >>>>> be compared with XQuery when used for XML querying, generation, > >>>>> transformation, templating, composition and so on? > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks a lot! > >>>>> > >>>>> Marco. > >>>>> > >>>> > > > > -- > Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basexgmbh.de > |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz > |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: > | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle > `-- Phone: 0049 7531 91 68 276, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22 >