Fwd: Re: whitespaces in import
Sorry, mail was supposed to be send to the mailing list... Information is the same as in Leos mail -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [basex-talk] whitespaces in import Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:59:12 +0100 From: Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> To: Stefan Sechelmann <sechel@math.tu-berlin.de> Hello Stefan, On 26/03/14 17:51, Stefan Sechelmann wrote: Is there some kind of whitespace normalization
going on during import?
Yes, it is. Can I set options that influence this behavior or is this a bug? Yes, you can. Set the CHOP option to false (see https://docs.basex.org/wiki/Options#CHOP for details) or start BaseX with the -w flag (which sets CHOP to false). Hope that helps. Cheers, Dirk -- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22
Though I think "CHOP" defaulting to true is a bug compared to the expected behaviour of XML. And while it's very useful to have CHOP there for some kinds of data, for other kinds it's a severe hazard that it's the default. People have major freakouts when their documentation XML documents look like they've lost the white spaces around bold tags and will have nothing to do with BaseX thereafter. -- Graydon On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Sorry, mail was supposed to be send to the mailing list... Information is the same as in Leos mail
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [basex-talk] whitespaces in import Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:59:12 +0100 From: Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> To: Stefan Sechelmann <sechel@math.tu-berlin.de>
Hello Stefan,
On 26/03/14 17:51, Stefan Sechelmann wrote: Is there some kind of whitespace normalization
going on during import?
Yes, it is.
Can I set options that influence this behavior or is this a bug?
Yes, you can. Set the CHOP option to false (see https://docs.basex.org/wiki/Options#CHOP for details) or start BaseX with the -w flag (which sets CHOP to false).
Hope that helps.
Cheers, Dirk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
True; this discussion is already going on for quite a while now. The default value of CHOP will be changed in a future version of BaseX. On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Graydon Saunders <graydonish@gmail.com>wrote:
Though I think "CHOP" defaulting to true is a bug compared to the expected behaviour of XML.
And while it's very useful to have CHOP there for some kinds of data, for other kinds it's a severe hazard that it's the default. People have major freakouts when their documentation XML documents look like they've lost the white spaces around bold tags and will have nothing to do with BaseX thereafter.
-- Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Sorry, mail was supposed to be send to the mailing list... Information is the same as in Leos mail
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [basex-talk] whitespaces in import Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:59:12 +0100 From: Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> To: Stefan Sechelmann <sechel@math.tu-berlin.de>
Hello Stefan,
On 26/03/14 17:51, Stefan Sechelmann wrote: Is there some kind of whitespace normalization
going on during import?
Yes, it is.
Can I set options that influence this behavior or is this a bug?
Yes, you can. Set the CHOP option to false (see https://docs.basex.org/wiki/Options#CHOP for details) or start BaseX with the -w flag (which sets CHOP to false).
Hope that helps.
Cheers, Dirk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
Could we get _which_ future version? I recall this being said before 7.8 was released, too, and was feeling hopeful. I understand that from a technical perspective this is a completely trivial thing -- set the flag! -- but from the perspective of having to argue for three months to be able to use BaseX at all at a client whose internal tester did a naive load of some narrative-style XML, observed the loss of white space around internal-to-the-mixed-content tags, and said "this application is banned", it's not trivial at all. Especially since it's not technically correct to the XML spec; one is forced to argue that something is a minor quirk of an otherwise excellent application *after* it's already given senior, stubborn, and non-technical content experts metaphorical heart attacks. On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Christian Grün <christian.gruen@gmail.com> wrote:
True; this discussion is already going on for quite a while now. The default value of CHOP will be changed in a future version of BaseX.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Graydon Saunders <graydonish@gmail.com> wrote:
Though I think "CHOP" defaulting to true is a bug compared to the expected behaviour of XML.
And while it's very useful to have CHOP there for some kinds of data, for other kinds it's a severe hazard that it's the default. People have major freakouts when their documentation XML documents look like they've lost the white spaces around bold tags and will have nothing to do with BaseX thereafter.
-- Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Sorry, mail was supposed to be send to the mailing list... Information is the same as in Leos mail
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [basex-talk] whitespaces in import Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:59:12 +0100 From: Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> To: Stefan Sechelmann <sechel@math.tu-berlin.de>
Hello Stefan,
On 26/03/14 17:51, Stefan Sechelmann wrote: Is there some kind of whitespace normalization
going on during import?
Yes, it is.
Can I set options that influence this behavior or is this a bug?
Yes, you can. Set the CHOP option to false (see https://docs.basex.org/wiki/Options#CHOP for details) or start BaseX with the -w flag (which sets CHOP to false).
Hope that helps.
Cheers, Dirk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
Hello Graydon, As Christian already pointed out, we had this discussion on the mailing list quite frequently. See Christians answer from some time ago for some insight: https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/pipermail/basex-talk/2013-April/004984.html So although it is of course easily changed in our code, it does has some serious implications in terms of backward compatibility. So you might be able to convince your client by stating that we take backward compatibility seriously and will take some time and thought to change things that break applications :) Cheers, Dirk On 26/03/14 18:24, Graydon Saunders wrote:
Could we get _which_ future version? I recall this being said before 7.8 was released, too, and was feeling hopeful.
I understand that from a technical perspective this is a completely trivial thing -- set the flag! -- but from the perspective of having to argue for three months to be able to use BaseX at all at a client whose internal tester did a naive load of some narrative-style XML, observed the loss of white space around internal-to-the-mixed-content tags, and said "this application is banned", it's not trivial at all. Especially since it's not technically correct to the XML spec; one is forced to argue that something is a minor quirk of an otherwise excellent application *after* it's already given senior, stubborn, and non-technical content experts metaphorical heart attacks.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Christian Grün <christian.gruen@gmail.com> wrote:
True; this discussion is already going on for quite a while now. The default value of CHOP will be changed in a future version of BaseX.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Graydon Saunders <graydonish@gmail.com> wrote:
Though I think "CHOP" defaulting to true is a bug compared to the expected behaviour of XML.
And while it's very useful to have CHOP there for some kinds of data, for other kinds it's a severe hazard that it's the default. People have major freakouts when their documentation XML documents look like they've lost the white spaces around bold tags and will have nothing to do with BaseX thereafter.
-- Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Sorry, mail was supposed to be send to the mailing list... Information is the same as in Leos mail
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [basex-talk] whitespaces in import Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:59:12 +0100 From: Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> To: Stefan Sechelmann <sechel@math.tu-berlin.de>
Hello Stefan,
On 26/03/14 17:51, Stefan Sechelmann wrote: Is there some kind of whitespace normalization
going on during import?
Yes, it is.
Can I set options that influence this behavior or is this a bug?
Yes, you can. Set the CHOP option to false (see https://docs.basex.org/wiki/Options#CHOP for details) or start BaseX with the -w flag (which sets CHOP to false).
Hope that helps.
Cheers, Dirk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22
Hi Dirk -- I understand that you don't want to break backward compatibility, but a)it never gets easier, only harder, when you must do that, as more existing applications accumulate and b)the example given of the type of problem is seriously bad code. (I totally believe this kind of code exists in the wild; I can't muster much sympathy for an observation that "give me every text node in the document" is likely to go wrong, because my experience says it is _certain_ to go wrong, you never do that without qualifying which text nodes you mean.) And, really, yeah, a commitment to backward compatibility is good; a commitment to preserving error is not, and the CHOP default behaviour is an error. Abstractions like backward compatibility don't even get into the discussion when the initial client response is "you changed our data and broke it". The client having that reaction wasn't very nuanced about it (and didn't immediately understand they were looking at a copy) but they weren't wrong. This really is a serious bug for mixed content. So, please, could we get a release version commitment for when this bug will be fixed? Thanks! Graydon On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Hello Graydon,
As Christian already pointed out, we had this discussion on the mailing list quite frequently. See Christians answer from some time ago for some insight: https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/pipermail/basex-talk/2013-April/004984.html
So although it is of course easily changed in our code, it does has some serious implications in terms of backward compatibility. So you might be able to convince your client by stating that we take backward compatibility seriously and will take some time and thought to change things that break applications :)
Cheers, Dirk
On 26/03/14 18:24, Graydon Saunders wrote:
Could we get _which_ future version? I recall this being said before 7.8 was released, too, and was feeling hopeful.
I understand that from a technical perspective this is a completely trivial thing -- set the flag! -- but from the perspective of having to argue for three months to be able to use BaseX at all at a client whose internal tester did a naive load of some narrative-style XML, observed the loss of white space around internal-to-the-mixed-content tags, and said "this application is banned", it's not trivial at all. Especially since it's not technically correct to the XML spec; one is forced to argue that something is a minor quirk of an otherwise excellent application *after* it's already given senior, stubborn, and non-technical content experts metaphorical heart attacks.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Christian Grün <christian.gruen@gmail.com> wrote:
True; this discussion is already going on for quite a while now. The default value of CHOP will be changed in a future version of BaseX.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Graydon Saunders <graydonish@gmail.com> wrote:
Though I think "CHOP" defaulting to true is a bug compared to the expected behaviour of XML.
And while it's very useful to have CHOP there for some kinds of data, for other kinds it's a severe hazard that it's the default. People have major freakouts when their documentation XML documents look like they've lost the white spaces around bold tags and will have nothing to do with BaseX thereafter.
-- Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Sorry, mail was supposed to be send to the mailing list... Information is the same as in Leos mail
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [basex-talk] whitespaces in import Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:59:12 +0100 From: Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> To: Stefan Sechelmann <sechel@math.tu-berlin.de>
Hello Stefan,
On 26/03/14 17:51, Stefan Sechelmann wrote: Is there some kind of whitespace normalization
going on during import?
Yes, it is.
Can I set options that influence this behavior or is this a bug?
Yes, you can. Set the CHOP option to false (see https://docs.basex.org/wiki/Options#CHOP for details) or start BaseX with the -w flag (which sets CHOP to false).
Hope that helps.
Cheers, Dirk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22 _______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
Hi Graydon, it is not so easy. For instance: The moment I turned off CHOP during import of my test data base, all of my unit tests involving assert-equals with a comparison of nodes failed because of extra of different whitespace. So this has indeed deep implications for running code. Stefan Stefan Sechelmann DFG-Forschungszentrum Matheon Mathematik für Schlüsseltechnologien Technische Universität Berlin Sekretariat MA 8-3 Tel. 030/314 29 486 Straße des 17. Juni 136 Fax 030/314 79 282 10623 Berlin sechel@math.tu-berlin.de http://www.math.tu-berlin.de/~sechel Am 26.03.2014 um 18:50 schrieb Graydon Saunders <graydonish@gmail.com>:
Hi Dirk --
I understand that you don't want to break backward compatibility, but a)it never gets easier, only harder, when you must do that, as more existing applications accumulate and b)the example given of the type of problem is seriously bad code. (I totally believe this kind of code exists in the wild; I can't muster much sympathy for an observation that "give me every text node in the document" is likely to go wrong, because my experience says it is _certain_ to go wrong, you never do that without qualifying which text nodes you mean.)
And, really, yeah, a commitment to backward compatibility is good; a commitment to preserving error is not, and the CHOP default behaviour is an error. Abstractions like backward compatibility don't even get into the discussion when the initial client response is "you changed our data and broke it". The client having that reaction wasn't very nuanced about it (and didn't immediately understand they were looking at a copy) but they weren't wrong. This really is a serious bug for mixed content.
So, please, could we get a release version commitment for when this bug will be fixed?
Thanks! Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Hello Graydon,
As Christian already pointed out, we had this discussion on the mailing list quite frequently. See Christians answer from some time ago for some insight: https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/pipermail/basex-talk/2013-April/004984.html
So although it is of course easily changed in our code, it does has some serious implications in terms of backward compatibility. So you might be able to convince your client by stating that we take backward compatibility seriously and will take some time and thought to change things that break applications :)
Cheers, Dirk
On 26/03/14 18:24, Graydon Saunders wrote:
Could we get _which_ future version? I recall this being said before 7.8 was released, too, and was feeling hopeful.
I understand that from a technical perspective this is a completely trivial thing -- set the flag! -- but from the perspective of having to argue for three months to be able to use BaseX at all at a client whose internal tester did a naive load of some narrative-style XML, observed the loss of white space around internal-to-the-mixed-content tags, and said "this application is banned", it's not trivial at all. Especially since it's not technically correct to the XML spec; one is forced to argue that something is a minor quirk of an otherwise excellent application *after* it's already given senior, stubborn, and non-technical content experts metaphorical heart attacks.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Christian Grün <christian.gruen@gmail.com> wrote:
True; this discussion is already going on for quite a while now. The default value of CHOP will be changed in a future version of BaseX.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Graydon Saunders <graydonish@gmail.com> wrote:
Though I think "CHOP" defaulting to true is a bug compared to the expected behaviour of XML.
And while it's very useful to have CHOP there for some kinds of data, for other kinds it's a severe hazard that it's the default. People have major freakouts when their documentation XML documents look like they've lost the white spaces around bold tags and will have nothing to do with BaseX thereafter.
-- Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Sorry, mail was supposed to be send to the mailing list... Information is the same as in Leos mail
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [basex-talk] whitespaces in import Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:59:12 +0100 From: Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> To: Stefan Sechelmann <sechel@math.tu-berlin.de>
Hello Stefan,
On 26/03/14 17:51, Stefan Sechelmann wrote: Is there some kind of whitespace normalization > going on during import?
Yes, it is.
Can I set options that influence this behavior or is this a bug?
Yes, you can. Set the CHOP option to false (see https://docs.basex.org/wiki/Options#CHOP for details) or start BaseX with the -w flag (which sets CHOP to false).
Hope that helps.
Cheers, Dirk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22 _______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
Graydon, It's a plain fact that we can't simply switch the default behavior of BaseX, because there are various applications out there that first need to be checked in depth before we can realize the switch. We simply need (..enough..) time to get aware of the consequences before we do simple things like inverting a boolean flag. I think there is no need to tell us what decision is right or wrong; we know by ourselves that there are enough reasons to change the default. Please remember that BaseX is a completely free product. I'm glad to hear that you are using BaseX with customers, and that you believe it's an (otherwise) excellent choice. If you think that the current default is a serious show stopper that's worth to be fixed, you are invited to sponsor the efforts; this may be more helpful than complaining about the status quo. Christian _________________________________________ On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Graydon Saunders <graydonish@gmail.com>wrote:
Hi Dirk --
I understand that you don't want to break backward compatibility, but a)it never gets easier, only harder, when you must do that, as more existing applications accumulate and b)the example given of the type of problem is seriously bad code. (I totally believe this kind of code exists in the wild; I can't muster much sympathy for an observation that "give me every text node in the document" is likely to go wrong, because my experience says it is _certain_ to go wrong, you never do that without qualifying which text nodes you mean.)
And, really, yeah, a commitment to backward compatibility is good; a commitment to preserving error is not, and the CHOP default behaviour is an error. Abstractions like backward compatibility don't even get into the discussion when the initial client response is "you changed our data and broke it". The client having that reaction wasn't very nuanced about it (and didn't immediately understand they were looking at a copy) but they weren't wrong. This really is a serious bug for mixed content.
So, please, could we get a release version commitment for when this bug will be fixed?
Thanks! Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Hello Graydon,
As Christian already pointed out, we had this discussion on the mailing list quite frequently. See Christians answer from some time ago for some insight:
https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/pipermail/basex-talk/2013-April/004984.html
So although it is of course easily changed in our code, it does has some serious implications in terms of backward compatibility. So you might be able to convince your client by stating that we take backward compatibility seriously and will take some time and thought to change things that break applications :)
Cheers, Dirk
On 26/03/14 18:24, Graydon Saunders wrote:
Could we get _which_ future version? I recall this being said before 7.8 was released, too, and was feeling hopeful.
I understand that from a technical perspective this is a completely trivial thing -- set the flag! -- but from the perspective of having to argue for three months to be able to use BaseX at all at a client whose internal tester did a naive load of some narrative-style XML, observed the loss of white space around internal-to-the-mixed-content tags, and said "this application is banned", it's not trivial at all. Especially since it's not technically correct to the XML spec; one is forced to argue that something is a minor quirk of an otherwise excellent application *after* it's already given senior, stubborn, and non-technical content experts metaphorical heart attacks.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Christian Grün <christian.gruen@gmail.com> wrote:
True; this discussion is already going on for quite a while now. The
default
value of CHOP will be changed in a future version of BaseX.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Graydon Saunders < graydonish@gmail.com> wrote:
Though I think "CHOP" defaulting to true is a bug compared to the expected behaviour of XML.
And while it's very useful to have CHOP there for some kinds of data, for other kinds it's a severe hazard that it's the default. People have major freakouts when their documentation XML documents look like they've lost the white spaces around bold tags and will have nothing to do with BaseX thereafter.
-- Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Sorry, mail was supposed to be send to the mailing list...
Information
is the same as in Leos mail
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [basex-talk] whitespaces in import Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:59:12 +0100 From: Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> To: Stefan Sechelmann <sechel@math.tu-berlin.de>
Hello Stefan,
On 26/03/14 17:51, Stefan Sechelmann wrote: Is there some kind of whitespace normalization > going on during import?
Yes, it is.
Can I set options that influence this behavior or is this a bug?
Yes, you can. Set the CHOP option to false (see https://docs.basex.org/wiki/Options#CHOP for details) or start BaseX with the -w flag (which sets CHOP to false).
Hope that helps.
Cheers, Dirk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22 _______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
Hi Graydon, as already said, we are going to change the default and we are aware of the problem. But I do think your statement that this is an error and we are "preserving errors" does not hold. As Liam Quin pointed out at https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/pipermail/basex-talk/2013-April/004983.html it is in fact a quirky behavior of BaseX, but it does not contradict the spec. Also, I'd like to remind everyone that it is fact quite easy to change the CHOP value, so this should also be possible at a client side. We do understand the problems with the default value and take them seriously. However, there are implications with changing the default value and we have to consider them. A client would also certainly complain if we change default values all the time... Cheers, Dirk On 26/03/14 18:50, Graydon Saunders wrote:
Hi Dirk --
I understand that you don't want to break backward compatibility, but a)it never gets easier, only harder, when you must do that, as more existing applications accumulate and b)the example given of the type of problem is seriously bad code. (I totally believe this kind of code exists in the wild; I can't muster much sympathy for an observation that "give me every text node in the document" is likely to go wrong, because my experience says it is _certain_ to go wrong, you never do that without qualifying which text nodes you mean.)
And, really, yeah, a commitment to backward compatibility is good; a commitment to preserving error is not, and the CHOP default behaviour is an error. Abstractions like backward compatibility don't even get into the discussion when the initial client response is "you changed our data and broke it". The client having that reaction wasn't very nuanced about it (and didn't immediately understand they were looking at a copy) but they weren't wrong. This really is a serious bug for mixed content.
So, please, could we get a release version commitment for when this bug will be fixed?
Thanks! Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Hello Graydon,
As Christian already pointed out, we had this discussion on the mailing list quite frequently. See Christians answer from some time ago for some insight: https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/pipermail/basex-talk/2013-April/004984.html
So although it is of course easily changed in our code, it does has some serious implications in terms of backward compatibility. So you might be able to convince your client by stating that we take backward compatibility seriously and will take some time and thought to change things that break applications :)
Cheers, Dirk
On 26/03/14 18:24, Graydon Saunders wrote:
Could we get _which_ future version? I recall this being said before 7.8 was released, too, and was feeling hopeful.
I understand that from a technical perspective this is a completely trivial thing -- set the flag! -- but from the perspective of having to argue for three months to be able to use BaseX at all at a client whose internal tester did a naive load of some narrative-style XML, observed the loss of white space around internal-to-the-mixed-content tags, and said "this application is banned", it's not trivial at all. Especially since it's not technically correct to the XML spec; one is forced to argue that something is a minor quirk of an otherwise excellent application *after* it's already given senior, stubborn, and non-technical content experts metaphorical heart attacks.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Christian Grün <christian.gruen@gmail.com> wrote:
True; this discussion is already going on for quite a while now. The default value of CHOP will be changed in a future version of BaseX.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Graydon Saunders <graydonish@gmail.com> wrote:
Though I think "CHOP" defaulting to true is a bug compared to the expected behaviour of XML.
And while it's very useful to have CHOP there for some kinds of data, for other kinds it's a severe hazard that it's the default. People have major freakouts when their documentation XML documents look like they've lost the white spaces around bold tags and will have nothing to do with BaseX thereafter.
-- Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Sorry, mail was supposed to be send to the mailing list... Information is the same as in Leos mail
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [basex-talk] whitespaces in import Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:59:12 +0100 From: Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> To: Stefan Sechelmann <sechel@math.tu-berlin.de>
Hello Stefan,
On 26/03/14 17:51, Stefan Sechelmann wrote: Is there some kind of whitespace normalization > going on during import?
Yes, it is.
Can I set options that influence this behavior or is this a bug?
Yes, you can. Set the CHOP option to false (see https://docs.basex.org/wiki/Options#CHOP for details) or start BaseX with the -w flag (which sets CHOP to false).
Hope that helps.
Cheers, Dirk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22 _______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22
I have added a GitHub issue for the CHOP option: https://github.com/BaseXdb/basex/issues/913 I invite all of you to add comments, report on potential difficulties caused by the switch, etc. Christian On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Hi Graydon,
as already said, we are going to change the default and we are aware of the problem.
But I do think your statement that this is an error and we are "preserving errors" does not hold. As Liam Quin pointed out at https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/pipermail/basex-talk/2013-April/004983.html it is in fact a quirky behavior of BaseX, but it does not contradict the spec.
Also, I'd like to remind everyone that it is fact quite easy to change the CHOP value, so this should also be possible at a client side.
We do understand the problems with the default value and take them seriously. However, there are implications with changing the default value and we have to consider them. A client would also certainly complain if we change default values all the time...
Cheers, Dirk
On 26/03/14 18:50, Graydon Saunders wrote:
Hi Dirk --
I understand that you don't want to break backward compatibility, but a)it never gets easier, only harder, when you must do that, as more existing applications accumulate and b)the example given of the type of problem is seriously bad code. (I totally believe this kind of code exists in the wild; I can't muster much sympathy for an observation that "give me every text node in the document" is likely to go wrong, because my experience says it is _certain_ to go wrong, you never do that without qualifying which text nodes you mean.)
And, really, yeah, a commitment to backward compatibility is good; a commitment to preserving error is not, and the CHOP default behaviour is an error. Abstractions like backward compatibility don't even get into the discussion when the initial client response is "you changed our data and broke it". The client having that reaction wasn't very nuanced about it (and didn't immediately understand they were looking at a copy) but they weren't wrong. This really is a serious bug for mixed content.
So, please, could we get a release version commitment for when this bug will be fixed?
Thanks! Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Hello Graydon,
As Christian already pointed out, we had this discussion on the mailing list quite frequently. See Christians answer from some time ago for some insight: https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/pipermail/basex-talk/2013-April/004984.html
So although it is of course easily changed in our code, it does has some serious implications in terms of backward compatibility. So you might be able to convince your client by stating that we take backward compatibility seriously and will take some time and thought to change things that break applications :)
Cheers, Dirk
On 26/03/14 18:24, Graydon Saunders wrote:
Could we get _which_ future version? I recall this being said before 7.8 was released, too, and was feeling hopeful.
I understand that from a technical perspective this is a completely trivial thing -- set the flag! -- but from the perspective of having to argue for three months to be able to use BaseX at all at a client whose internal tester did a naive load of some narrative-style XML, observed the loss of white space around internal-to-the-mixed-content tags, and said "this application is banned", it's not trivial at all. Especially since it's not technically correct to the XML spec; one is forced to argue that something is a minor quirk of an otherwise excellent application *after* it's already given senior, stubborn, and non-technical content experts metaphorical heart attacks.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Christian Grün <christian.gruen@gmail.com> wrote:
True; this discussion is already going on for quite a while now. The default value of CHOP will be changed in a future version of BaseX.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Graydon Saunders <graydonish@gmail.com> wrote:
Though I think "CHOP" defaulting to true is a bug compared to the expected behaviour of XML.
And while it's very useful to have CHOP there for some kinds of data, for other kinds it's a severe hazard that it's the default. People have major freakouts when their documentation XML documents look like they've lost the white spaces around bold tags and will have nothing to do with BaseX thereafter.
-- Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote: > Sorry, mail was supposed to be send to the mailing list... Information > is the same as in Leos mail > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [basex-talk] whitespaces in import > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:59:12 +0100 > From: Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> > To: Stefan Sechelmann <sechel@math.tu-berlin.de> > > Hello Stefan, > > On 26/03/14 17:51, Stefan Sechelmann wrote: > Is there some kind of whitespace normalization >> going on during import? > > Yes, it is. > > Can I set options that influence this behavior or is this a bug? > > Yes, you can. Set the CHOP option to false (see > https://docs.basex.org/wiki/Options#CHOP for details) or start BaseX > with the -w flag (which sets CHOP to false). > > Hope that helps. > > Cheers, > Dirk > > -- > Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org > |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz > |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: > | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle > `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22 > > > _______________________________________________ > BaseX-Talk mailing list > BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de > https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk _______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22 _______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22 _______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
Dear all (pasted from GitHub), What about a mechanism like the output:cdata-section-elements option ? That way, one could set the list of elements not to be (recursivly) chopped. For my usage (bibliographic data in intellectual propery domain), chopping by default is a good thing, because only a few document's elements contain textual mixed-content. Hoping it helps, Thank you Christian for the great job you do with your team. -----Message d'origine----- De : basex-talk-bounces@mailman.uni-konstanz.de [mailto:basex-talk-bounces@mailman.uni-konstanz.de] De la part de Christian Grün Envoyé : jeudi 27 mars 2014 14:03 À : Dirk Kirsten Cc : BaseX Objet : Re: [basex-talk] Fwd: Re: whitespaces in import I have added a GitHub issue for the CHOP option: https://github.com/BaseXdb/basex/issues/913 I invite all of you to add comments, report on potential difficulties caused by the switch, etc. Christian On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Hi Graydon,
as already said, we are going to change the default and we are aware of the problem.
But I do think your statement that this is an error and we are "preserving errors" does not hold. As Liam Quin pointed out at https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/pipermail/basex-talk/2013-April/004983 .html it is in fact a quirky behavior of BaseX, but it does not contradict the spec.
Also, I'd like to remind everyone that it is fact quite easy to change the CHOP value, so this should also be possible at a client side.
We do understand the problems with the default value and take them seriously. However, there are implications with changing the default value and we have to consider them. A client would also certainly complain if we change default values all the time...
Cheers, Dirk
On 26/03/14 18:50, Graydon Saunders wrote:
Hi Dirk --
I understand that you don't want to break backward compatibility, but a)it never gets easier, only harder, when you must do that, as more existing applications accumulate and b)the example given of the type of problem is seriously bad code. (I totally believe this kind of code exists in the wild; I can't muster much sympathy for an observation that "give me every text node in the document" is likely to go wrong, because my experience says it is _certain_ to go wrong, you never do that without qualifying which text nodes you mean.)
And, really, yeah, a commitment to backward compatibility is good; a commitment to preserving error is not, and the CHOP default behaviour is an error. Abstractions like backward compatibility don't even get into the discussion when the initial client response is "you changed our data and broke it". The client having that reaction wasn't very nuanced about it (and didn't immediately understand they were looking at a copy) but they weren't wrong. This really is a serious bug for mixed content.
So, please, could we get a release version commitment for when this bug will be fixed?
Thanks! Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote:
Hello Graydon,
As Christian already pointed out, we had this discussion on the mailing list quite frequently. See Christians answer from some time ago for some insight: https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/pipermail/basex-talk/2013-April/0049 84.html
So although it is of course easily changed in our code, it does has some serious implications in terms of backward compatibility. So you might be able to convince your client by stating that we take backward compatibility seriously and will take some time and thought to change things that break applications :)
Cheers, Dirk
On 26/03/14 18:24, Graydon Saunders wrote:
Could we get _which_ future version? I recall this being said before 7.8 was released, too, and was feeling hopeful.
I understand that from a technical perspective this is a completely trivial thing -- set the flag! -- but from the perspective of having to argue for three months to be able to use BaseX at all at a client whose internal tester did a naive load of some narrative-style XML, observed the loss of white space around internal-to-the-mixed-content tags, and said "this application is banned", it's not trivial at all. Especially since it's not technically correct to the XML spec; one is forced to argue that something is a minor quirk of an otherwise excellent application *after* it's already given senior, stubborn, and non-technical content experts metaphorical heart attacks.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Christian Grün <christian.gruen@gmail.com> wrote:
True; this discussion is already going on for quite a while now. The default value of CHOP will be changed in a future version of BaseX.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Graydon Saunders <graydonish@gmail.com> wrote:
Though I think "CHOP" defaulting to true is a bug compared to the expected behaviour of XML.
And while it's very useful to have CHOP there for some kinds of data, for other kinds it's a severe hazard that it's the default. People have major freakouts when their documentation XML documents look like they've lost the white spaces around bold tags and will have nothing to do with BaseX thereafter.
-- Graydon
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> wrote: > Sorry, mail was supposed to be send to the mailing list... > Information is the same as in Leos mail > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [basex-talk] whitespaces in import > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:59:12 +0100 > From: Dirk Kirsten <dk@basex.org> > To: Stefan Sechelmann <sechel@math.tu-berlin.de> > > Hello Stefan, > > On 26/03/14 17:51, Stefan Sechelmann wrote: > Is there some kind of whitespace normalization >> going on during import? > > Yes, it is. > > Can I set options that influence this behavior or is this a bug? > > Yes, you can. Set the CHOP option to false (see > https://docs.basex.org/wiki/Options#CHOP for details) or start > BaseX with the -w flag (which sets CHOP to false). > > Hope that helps. > > Cheers, > Dirk > > -- > Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org > |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz > |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: > | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael > |Seiferle > `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22 > > > _______________________________________________ > BaseX-Talk mailing list > BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de > https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk _______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
_______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22 _______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
-- Dirk Kirsten, BaseX GmbH, http://basex.org |-- Firmensitz: Blarerstrasse 56, 78462 Konstanz |-- Registergericht Freiburg, HRB: 708285, Geschäftsführer: | Dr. Christian Grün, Dr. Alexander Holupirek, Michael Seiferle `-- Phone: 0049 7531 28 28 676, Fax: 0049 7531 20 05 22 _______________________________________________ BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
participants (5)
-
Christian Grün -
Dirk Kirsten -
Fabrice Etanchaud -
Graydon Saunders -
Stefan Sechelmann